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Dennis, the problem with divestiture is that it's never been used properly.

Take, for example, the recent push for US and British universities to divest from Israel. This should be encouraged. And then those same universities should be compelled by the caring to invest all those recovered funds in the Palestinian territories.

The way I see it, if we can't get the lefties off campus on grounds of intellectual dishonesty and academic incompetence, just bankrupt the campuses out from under 'em...

"... the people of the most populace country on Earth"

Hope the mystery writer and media mogul wannabe Roger L. Simon isn't volunteering to tutor English to them billions and billions of Chinese.

Boycott China? No way, José. Not if means we won't have any more magnetic car ribbons!

Dennis,

If you were to go to the great Raj's web site, and glance at the left side of the page, you will see a small text box labeled "Search this site."

I'm sure that the search technology used doesn't involve anything from Google, Yahoo!, nor Microsoft. If it did, Raj would have to divest from his very own web page, wouldn't he?

LOL. The sadness.

It wasn't that long ago when Markos was wildly speculating that PjM might be funded by Communist China because 2/3 of their content was from Xinhua News Agency. I guess that answers that.

D, look at the investors--Chernick and Koshland, for starters. Hardly Chinaphobes.

Roger who?

Thanks for the "H," Dennis. Pete's a personal hero of mine, too.


D. Edgren

I love it - Fox News is all anti-google at the mo' as well - despite the fact that Murdoch has his very own, um, customised China-specific cable platform

Bravo sir, well spo...er, written.

i was gonna mention murdoch's links with china, but lukery put his first.

Hey, Dennis, Wolcott told me it would be fun and he was right. Nice work.

Thanks Dennis for your lively commentary and insights. My father the con artist would have appreciated your smarts and not tried to run any games on you. He had so many other easier marks to keep him busy.

holy fuck, that was funny.

Dennis,

You forgot to mention Roger's self interest here. He's asking people to boycott the biggest competitor of his fledgling advertising network.

Where was Mr Simon's moral outrage when in 1994, Rupert Murdoch's Star network removed the BBC's international news from its Chinese service because a program critical of late leader Mao Zedong offended the authorities.
Where was his call for full divestiture in Newscorp?
Could it be that in 1997 his book THE LOST COAST was published by HarperCollins- a Newscorp holding.

I guess you don't bite the hand with which you morally masturbate.

Calm down Dennis, you make a good point, but you shouldn't overdo it. Who ever goes all the way on anything except fanatics? And even they take the easy way out, sooner or later. The all-too-human instinct for hypocrisy cannot be denied.

I agree that self-interest rules. But we need each other; so the solution is _enlightened_ self-interest. The fact that people will do the right thing, up until it starts to hurt... well, live with it, dude! You want them to give more? All right, explain why it's worth the trouble, and maybe you've got a deal!

For instance, one of my favorite environmental groups is Ducks Unlimited; hunters who want to preserve wetlands so there will be more ducks for them to kill. How logical! How self-supporting! No altruism necessary. How (literally) ecological; the hunters regard themselves as part of the ecology!

The appeal to enlightened self-interest requires integrity and/or competence; qualities unfortunately rare in politics, especially lately.

BTW, one can make a case against meat on health grounds. Fat, viruses, prions... and the fact that Bush bosses the meat inspectors.

Lotsa good stuff here, but the "All the Way" premise is as unconvincing as ever.

agree with the previous posters. i would go further--the s africa divestiture program had a major galvanizing effect on the events of the day as they played out. because dennis you've forgotten one key component of any exercise--the appearance of a thing rather than the reality. divesting in S africa, however haphazardly and clumsily it was done, helped to bring to light the policies of that country to a large group of people who would otherwise have been indifferent. that had a real world effect which played itself out in supporting the ANC and botha in his halting moves towards reform.

pjm still sucks, though.

Robert-

Tiananmen happened on TV in real time. There is no 'education of the public' component involved here. We, as well as our government, have made the conscious decision to coexist rather than confront. To assume a posture of moral outrage, on an arbitrary and high selective basis, over the practices of U.S. companies (acting with the blessing of the U.S. government) doing business with the government of China seems to be a less than completely public-minded enterprise. The fundamental questions have not been answered:

1) Why now?
2) Why those companies?

Until I have a convincing answer for each, I am free to assume that this is little more than Raj's version of Hearst's jingoistic calls for war on Spain.

Gods-

Of course it is extreme... and done so deliberately to show just how arbitrary and selective this divestiture movement really is. Raj wrote his post calling for YOU to divest yourself of Microsoft on a Sony laptop powered by Windows. It doesn't get much sillier than that.

Elizabeth Wood has a book on democratic transitions in El Salvador and South Africa that argues that, in fact, the threat of (and promulgation of) a divestment campaign made continuing the apartheid status quo more expensive, precipitating regime change. In other words, there is evidence that the divestment campaign brought about the 1990 change. Obviously, the end of the Cold War also explains quite a bit.

I'd welcome evidence to the contrary.

Gotcha, Dennis. And Simon is properly nailed.

All.The.Way. is loaded beyond description. I still think it's the wrong keynote here. I hope for effective tactics that are relatively cheap and convenient. Divesting myself of stocks I don't own satisfies half that criteria.

But seriously: when people don't know how to attain a goal, they're tempted to posit that going All the Way in terms of cost and inconvenience would do the trick. (I've tried this approach to various problems with mixed results.)

Which I don't want to believe you're doing. But you don't know what to do about China any more than I do. Moral half-measures aren't so bad, really.

You've got him all wrong. For Simon, it's not about the money, it is all about political change! Thought power!

So what Simon really wants is a grassroots movement of Google stock owners to cast off the metaphorical chains (dividends are chains) of their capitalist oppressors, who bow to Chinese censorship in exchange for their thirty bloodsoaked pieces of silver.

It's a revolution of the elite against a nefarious alliance between the capitalists and the Communists! Who will emerge triumphant?!

And failing to divest of Google will be a victory for the terrorists.

WTF? Bashing on China? Who the fock do these people think have been buying up the ungodly debt generated by the Bushies? How about #2 on the Hit Parade of Foreign Holders of Federal Debt, sung to the tune of $252 BILLION US Dollars?

Link

As someone who lived and worked in China for a time, I know that it's necessary to some extent to incorporate oneself into the culture there, but these companies may indeed be taking things too far by collaborating with the government.

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