The Preamble...

Let’s clear a few things up before we get lost in all the fun.

Point The First:

I’ve received a few emails from persons (that I’ve never met) who state, quite confidently, that the only reason I’ve decided to take up the issue of Charles Johnson’s anti-Muslim crusade is because I hate him. Beyond the fact that truth is independent of impetus that brings it forth, which renders such an argument moot, the fact of the matter is that I don’t hate Charles Johnson. Roger Simon I hate, but Charles Johnson?

Get serious.

I might hate Charles Johnson on a personal level if I thought him truly capable of anything other than being along for the ride. When I was around him it was clear he relying completely on Roger Simon to guide him to glory (and riches). Charles does what he is told. How can you hate a guy who’s got the backbone of a chocolate éclair? That’s why I tagged him Poodle Chaz in the first place... he’s Roger Simon’s faithful little puppy dog. He wags his tail and goes where Roger goes because that’s what little dogs do. In the case of Charles, it’s more a matter of scorn, of small regard, than it is of hate.

This isn't about what Charles did or didn't do to me. This is about what Charles Johnson does on his blog.

Point The Second:

I’ve also received a couple of emails accusing me of abandoning the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy. The take here is that because Lefties are much worse and far more hypocritical about religious tolerance, the War on Terror and the threat of Middle Eastern Fascism, I’m being unfair to my little Right Wing friends by criticizing them for indulging in extended bouts of mindless hating.

Yeah. Whatever.

Look, I fully understand that for every Charles Johnson haranguing the internet on the evil of Islam and savagery of Muslims, there’s some moron like Marc Cooper insulting every Catholic on the planet by comparing the Pope to Joseph Stalin. I’ve given Marc Cooper a certain amount of my attention over the past year, but the bottom line is that I don’t really give a flying handshake about the likes of him. I suppose if I met him I’d take the time to knock him on his fat ass for funzies, but the reality of the matter is that he’s exactly the type of on-the-make suburban Marxist that put me in the Republican camp in the first place. So just how does my objecting to blatant bigotry weaken the VRWC? By enhancing the reputation of jerks like Marc Cooper? You've got to be kidding me. The Marc Coopers of the world are self-leveling... claiming it ain't so to cover for someone like Charles Johnson is disingenuous, to put it mildly.

My concern is, primarily, with my camp. With my tribe. I'm happy to let Marc Cooper act like a fool because nobody can pin his politics or his opinions on me or mine. He’s shitting in his own blighted house. That isn’t the case with morons like Charles Johnson or, for that matter, even bigger morons like Ann Coulter. They’re taking dumps where I live, which means either I live with the shit or I clean it up. I choose the latter. It is just that simple. The argument that I should leave it be because Marc Cooper does the same is the argument of a five year old child: “But he did it, too!” Sorry, fellow VRWC minions, but if we’re supposed to be the adults in the room, then cleaning up after ourselves goes with the territory.

Get over it.

Point The Third:

Having to do this in the first place really pisses me off. We're supposed to be the Good Guys. This is America. I shouldn’t have to worry about whether one of my fellow citizens is going to dehumanize or discriminate against or physically harm another of my fellow citizens for no better reason than the misplaced hatred of one of the major religious faiths on the planet. That's al-Qaeda's job... not ours.

We’re supposed to be the tolerant ones, right?

So if Charles Krauthammer, who I usually like, wants to yammer on about the hypocrisy of moderate Muslims in dealing with the Cartoon Affair, and chooses to do so on the same Fox News channel that features Larry Kudlow playing footsies with Roger Simon and Charles Johnson - both of whom consider all Muslims evil - or Ann Coulter - who considers all Muslim pure evil - running her mouth with Sean Hannity, he may find himself taken less than completely seriously by folks like me. What moderate Muslim is going to stick his neck out for us, if "us" means the wise and tolerant Judeo-Christian moderates such as Ann C., Roger S. or Charles J.? If Abdul The Moderate is going to be hated whether he's moderate or not, what's Abdul's motivation for risking life and limb to take on the stone cold killers of al-Qaeda and save us? Where is his upside in this, Mr. Krauthammer?

Besides, this isn’t about the hypocrisy of others – there’s enough hypocrisy to go all the way around – it’s about us, collectively, as citizens of the United States, doing the right thing. If we do the right thing, the hypocrisy of whomever else is involved will take care of itself.

So... when I see people yucking it up over at Little Green Footballs over the deaths of 300+ religious pilgrims – innocent human beings whose crime was, evidently, that they weren’t Christians and just like us... and whose deaths are therefore something to gloat over – and Charles Johnson doesn’t think it appropriate or necessary to remove those comments and ban those people from his site, then I’ve got one mother of a problem on my hands. That’s because Charles Johnson styles himself as a ‘former Liberal’, which means he thinks of himself as being part of my political party and my political faith... he wants to live in my house.

And the fact of the matter is that I don’t want his dumb ass anywhere near either my party or my politics, period. My political philosophy doesn’t allow me to gloat over the deaths of more than 300 innocents while mourning the deaths of more than 3,000 different innocents on the purely arbitrary basis of religious affiliation. Nor does my moral philosophy. I’m a Republican and a conservative and I’m deeply proud of that. And to continue to be proud, I think it necessary that people like Charles Johnson be shunned and despised by those who take the principles of my party and my political philosophy seriously. Period. We did it with Pat Buchanan for exactly the same reasons, so there is no excuse for not taking exactly the same course with Charles Johnson or Roger Simon or Ann Coulter. And if 'conservatives' and/or 'Republicans' think that group solidarity trumps morality, or that bashing Muslims constitutes either good politics or good business, then they're no better than their despised Lefty Foes who, knowing who and what International ANSWER was, happily chose to march with them in fraternal bliss anyway.

What's good for the goose is just as good for the gander.

Point The Fourth:

One of the big reasons the attacks of September 11, 2001 succeeded was because we, collectively, thoughtlessly, dismissed a growing, and in retrospect, obvious threat. We dismissed it for a number of reasons, but primarily we dismissed it because we did not bother to understand what was happening around us. We didn’t understand the nature the threat because we didn’t understand who our enemies were and why they wished to destroy us. And, collectively, we chose to ignore the accumulating evidence that this enemy would do us grievous harm... and largely for reasons we should be ashamed of. We saw non-Westerners, non-Judeo-Christians and assumed, incorrectly, that we were facing a foe incapable of delivering a hurtful blow. They were the ‘Other’, and as such, they were nothing more than The Gang That Couldn't Shoot Straight; they were dangerous to an extent, but essentially limited by their ‘Otherness’. We could deal with their threat on our terms and at our leisure because we were white and Judeo-Christian and Western and therefore superior.

Now that it is clear that al-Qaeda can Shoot Straight, it would seem obvious that if we are to protect ourselves we need to drop some of the notions and beliefs that served us so poorly leading up to September 11. This is especially true of those who have believed in and supported the escalation of the War on Terror by backing President Bush’s decision to depose the Ba’athist regime in Iraq. I have not taken the decision to support sending Americans to fight and die in Iraq lightly. It is something I have agonized upon... and still agonize upon. And it seems beyond argument that people who have taken the same position as I have owe it to those in harm’s way that we demand our government to come to a much clearer understanding of our enemy and the threat he poses than either before September 11, 2001 or March 20, 2003. Anything less leads to more dead Americans... both in and out of the military.

If such a demand is reasonable – that our government expend the time, effort and treasure to ferret out the truth of who actually is our enemy – it seems equally reasonable to expect the same of myself. This is not to say that I am, will be or could be an expert in Islam, Middle Eastern culture, politics and history. It is not necessary for every citizen to become any of those things. But what is necessary is to understand what part our pre-September 11 attitudes contributed to that particular disaster. Does anyone want to argue that a collective lack of knowledge of, and a persistent misunderstanding of, of the religion, culture, politics and history of the Middle East didn’t play a huge part in facilitating the success of al-Qaeda on September 11? And if our ignorance of the peoples, religion, history and politics played into the hands of Osama bin Laden and his followers, just how do the actions of “thought leading, tipping point” bloggers like Charles Johnson and columnists like Ann Coulter help to rectify that situation? How does the mocking of the faith of over a billion souls serve our interests in winning the War on Terror? How does the dehumanization of those same billion souls make us stronger - either materially or morally - in the fight against al Qaeda?

Answer? They Don't.

They perpetuate the precise weaknesses we must work to eliminate if we are to win either the War on Terror or the Iraq War. They perpetuate the same sly arrogance that we can and will prevail without effort because we are what we are and they are the ‘Other’; the inferior. Given that al-Qaeda has shown itself willing and able to kill thousands of non-combatants in one fell swoop, just how is our cause served by Charles Johnson when he insists, against all available evidence, that our enemy consists of insane, unthinking, and mindless non-humans. How is our cause served by insisting that our enemy is not, at the most, several thousand committed fascists, but rather over billion people who happen to share exactly one common characteristic? How does reducing the difficult and complex problem of defeating a determined enemy that poses an existential threat to simpleminded hatred of over billion human beings serve our nation and our cause? How does that get us to victory?

Finally:

The charge has already been leveled, and will no doubt be leveled again, so I might as well deal with it right now: I’m a shill for ‘the Muslims’... I am either their witting or unwitting dupe. My response is the same one used to respond to the charge that I’ve been duped by the Left to shill against Roger Simon and Charles Johnson in the first place:

Yeah. Right.

I’ve been working with minority communities on a daily basis for over a decade now. At one time over 70% of my firm’s revenues came from minority owned or run organizations. Today the number is about 50%. I didn’t end of with half my client base being either Somali-American or African-American because I’m a Real Lovable Guy, or because I'm the Big White Daddy. I acquired those clients because I’ve earned the reputation as someone who doesn’t bullshit and won’t patronize. Everyone appreciates being taken seriously, none more so than those who are used to being either ignored and taken for granted.

When I’ve been asked by the Somalians to answer their questions, I’ve done so as honestly as I possibly could. That means I’ve told them things they really didn’t want to hear on more than one occasion. That should become evident as this bit of fun progresses. These people aren't saints, but they certainly are not devils, either. They are alive to good and evil just as we are. And that's all I'm really interested in conveying about them...

That said, I'll be the last person on Earth to deny that there aren't some very serious problems in the Islamic world today. Certainly the lack of any sort of secular tradition has allowed the fascists of the Middle East to use the symbolism of Islam for their own, very non-religious, ends. Certainly some sort of reformation of the sort Christianity went through appears to be in order. But just how mocking Muslims, insulting Islam and encouraging the dehumanization and hatred of over one billion people is supposed to help in reformation or secularization is beyond me. But then again, I don't have the sort of brain power Ann, Roger and Charles have, do I?

From where I stand, it is people like Ann Coulter and Roger Simon and Charles Johnson, rather than my own true self, who are being the shills here.They are the one peddling an Easy Way Out, not me.

My First Muslim Story Comes Tomorrow...

Comments

[THIRDWAVEDAVE]

Wow!! Now that's a post.

[Gaijin Biker]

Dennis,

You wrote:

My concern is, primarily, with my camp. With my tribe. I'm happy to let Marc Cooper act like a fool because nobody can pin his politics or his opinions on me or mine. He’s shitting in his own blighted house. That isn’t the case with assholes like Charles Johnson or, for that matter, even bigger assholes like Ann Coulter. They’re taking dumps where I live, which means either I live with the shit or I clean it up. I choose the latter. It is just that simple."

Yet then you wrote:

What moderate Muslim is going to stick his neck out for us, if "us" means the wise and tolerant Judeo-Christian moderates such as Ann C., Roger S. or Charles J.? If Abdul The Moderate is going to be hated whether he's moderate or not, what's Abdul's motivation for risking life and limb to take on the stone cold killers of al-Qaeda and save us?

These statements seem contradictory to me. You are going to be hated by Islamic extremists whether you denounce more extreme conservatives or not. Yet you do so anyway, because there are certain views you simply won't tolerate.

Why shouldn't we expect moderate Muslims to dissassociate themselves from extremist Muslims even if we assume that extremist conservatives will hate them anyway (a claim I would dispute, by the way)?

Why shouldn't moderate Muslims be as concerned as you are about extremists "taking dumps where they live"?

[D.E. Cloutier]

I have dealt daily with Muslim societies for 30 years. I lived in Egypt and in Indonesia.

Please keep one thing in mind when you write your Muslim stories: Muslim countries are as different from each other as European countries are from each other. The Egyptians view themselves as the sophisticates of the Arab World. The successful people of Saudi Arabia are more like rich Texans. The majority of the Indonesian Muslims are "abangans"--Muslims who have fused Islam with Buddhism, Hinduism, and other beliefs.

Please be careful not to take your personal experiences with Somali Muslims and start making generalities about Muslims as a whole. Write only about the things you know. Good luck!

[Gaijin Biker]

Oops. In the above comment, I meant to write, "certain views you simply won't tolerate being associated with."

[Greybeard]

Thank you for tackling this subject. I'm looking for some insight to a culture I don't understand, and will continue reading.

I hope somewhere in future reading to have this question answered:
As a Christian, I would join thousands of Christians and go to war against a faction that hijacked my religion, as Muslim extremists have hijacked Islam.
Where is the moderate Muslim outrage? I'm not asking they do it for our sake.....
I would think they would do it to take their own religion back!

[D.E. Cloutier]

Dennis: "...because we were white..."

Be careful here, Dennis. Arabs are Caucasian. That means most Egyptians, Syrians, Iraqis, Jordanians, Palestinians, and Saudi Arabians are Caucasian. In addition, Iranians (Persians) are Caucasian. And most Aghans are Caucasian.

Bottom line: Most of the Islamic radicals in Al Qaeda are white guys. The "hot war" between the West and radical Islam is largely (but not completely) a war of white folks against white folks at this point.

[Richard Silverstein]

While our politics are quite different, I applaud you for taking on the likes of Johnson. I write a blog calling for Israeli-Palestinian peace which he & his PJM minions (esp. Aussie Dave & others) have attacked fr. time to time. I think these folks are some of the lowest bloggers out there. Their hatred for all Muslims is the most juvenile & ghastly hate you'll find in the blog world (well, ok there may be worse but it's really up there).

It's good to have an ally on this one esp. one who comes at this fr. a diff. political perspective.

[dawud]

aywa - with the caveat that I speak for no-one but myself, as a muslim, born in North America (Canada) and sharing a great affection for the land and peoples of America, indigenous or resident alien (and I'm speaking about those who've arrived over the last 500 years as aliens); I have some sympathy with what you're saying.

Similarly, I share some of your political views - I'm not a marxist, and loathe the idiocy of the rabid left like the rabid right - similarly, to use a muslim context, al-Qa'ida and Hamas are aposite the RAND corp ('progressive' muslims) & the set of regimes Washington has seen fit to support in the muslim world for the last 50 years - as distinct from those Moscow supported;

I have very personal reasons for wanting to see al-Q and ilk burn, partly because I lost a friend on Sep. 11th; a muslim (born in bangladesh; programmed and did network security for Marsh & McLennan) who's wife, grandmother and three kids all suffered a tragic loss. Despite that, what you wrote has resonance - 9/11 didn't begin or end global suffering...

to quote (Orthodox Jewish) Rabbi Brad Hirschfield (Frontline, 'faith & 9/11'):
Since Sept. 11, people keep asking me, "Where was God?" And they think because I'm a rabbi, I have answers. ... There is a part of me that wants to yell back at them, "What? You're asking now? Why now? Why didn't you ask about Bosnia or Rwanda or Hiroshima or gas chambers and concentration camps, or go back through all of human history? I don't understand. Now you're asking 'Where was God?' How many people go to bed hungry every night in the richest country in the world? And now you're asking about 'Where is the God of justice?'" http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/faith/questions/god.html

I guess what I'm trying to say is I'm glad to hear (conservative, patriotic, even Right-Wing[tm]) Americans like yourself not buying this "Islam is a monolith of demonic hatred, and the Qur'an is Mein Kampf in Arabic" that some of us have had to listen to for years.

and as to "What moderate Muslim is going to stick his neck out for us, if "us" means the wise and tolerant Judeo-Christian moderates such as Ann C., Roger S. or Charles J.?" that resonates with me - as to the second part of "who fights al-Q?" my answer would be if they catch bin Laden, and want to execute him live at the SuperBowl... well, they'd better give some Afghan orphan the gun.

There are millions of muslims, despite Chaz & others protestations, who have condemned terrorism: Dr. Alan Godlas has a pretty good list at
http://www.arches.uga.edu/~godlas/nineeleven.html

Also, I've spent time with Somalis, and find that besides their affection for over-sweet coffee and heavy cake; they're very... exuberant and physically affectionate (thinking of my friends, but those seem like positive generalizable qualities); I look forward to hearing more of your posts.

[catherine]

"but the reality of the matter is that he’s exactly the type of on-the-make suburban Marxist that put me in the Republican camp in the first place."

And then you criticize Charles Johnson for having no backbone....

I don't like Charles Johnson, but this is rather rich.

[DennisThePeasant]

Gaijin-

I don't feel the the statements are contradictory at all. What I was trying to address was Krauthammer's attempt to establish moral superiority over Muslims by blithly assuming that it is their obligation to put themselves in harm's way for our sake. I can easily take on C.J. here because I can be safe in the assumption that I will not have terrorists knocking at my door for doing so. The vast majority of Muslims do not have the right of free speech... many live in countries that are providing material support to those same terrorists... Under the circumstances I don't feel it fair to expect the average Muslim to risk life and limb in a war when I don't have to... I have the luxury of having 20 year old Marines between me and the bad guys.

D.E.-

Point well taken. My experience is almost exclusively with Somalian Muslims and what I say should stick to that. If I don't, smack me upside the head.

Also, to get to the ugly truth, there ain't many white folks here in the US that would consider either Arabs or Persians "white"... despite the fact that they are Caucasian.

[DennisThePeasant]

Catherine-

What in the world are you talking about?

[salvage]

Wow, excellent post. More thoughful and sane conservatives on the Internet please.

[Gaijin Biker]

Dennis, that's a fair point as far as it goes, but it doesn't explain the relative lack of criticism of Muslim extremists by Muslims who live in Western countries and who do enjoy the right to free speech.

I'm willing to believe that the rioters and haters are outnumbered by Muslims who just want to live in peace. But it's the former group that hogs the spotlight.

[DennisThePeasant]

Gaijin-

A fair point. I think I can address it in as far as the Somalis are concerned, and will do so as this series progresses.

[Anthony]

Gaijin - as far as the rioters and haters hogging the spotlight, well, that's because they're loud and obvious. To give you an example, from here in Australia, most of what I see of US Christianity is the extremists. I know that they are unrepresentative of Christians in the US. They stand up and make a lot of noise and therefore they attract the spotlight.

And this isn't a "oh, look, the big bad media is misrepresenting the situation". It's the media reporting news. Fred Phelps doing something photogenic and hateful is news. People quietly getting on with their lives who can't stand the man are not news.

And as far as people, say, counter-protesting against the loony muslims - I can't say I'd be real keen to get out there and mix it up on the street with a bunch of thugs with guns if I lived in the Middle East.

[G.B. fan]

"But it's the former group that hogs the spotlight." Or, or better put "as well", it is the former group that is given the spotlight. G.B., you're living in Tokyo, you should know better than most how the (U.S.) media talks to whom will tell them what they want to hear, only see what they have already decided to report, and make their contrived case no matter how obvious the facts are to the contrary. How much more is this the case when presenting the Muslim world, its street included. The reasons for what they choose to highlight, in this case, would be a long, sad tale indeed.As for Muslims in America, I'm interested in hearing what Dennis has to say. Our family friend is a Kurd and another is a family from Morocco. All are outspoken and brave. Each has stories all should hear. The Kurd is particularly brave, having gone back many times to his native land during the tyranny of Sadaam, and I've never met a greater supporter of Bush. I also remember him telling me about a big rally he attended with thousands of other Muslims, where Wolfowitz spoke, and where Wolfowitz was greeted as a hero. Didn't make the news though.

Anyway, write away Dennis. I'm looking forward to reading what you have to say. I would be interested in how you tie all this into your support of the Iraqi war. I imagine it will be along the lines of what my Muslim friends tell me.

As for Salvage's comment: if you want to find them it isn't difficult. Though wanting to find them is a giant step for most. Same goes with those on the opposite side who look towards the likes of Kos and his ilk and no further for their particular knowledge of the other.

[richard mcenroe]

"Also, to get to the ugly truth, there ain't many white folks here in the US that would consider either Arabs or Persians "white"... despite the fact that they are Caucasian."

It would be interesting to see how many Arabs agree with that definition. IIRC, there was at least one UAE emir during Gulf I who liked to boast about all the "White and Black Christian slave soldiers" he had in his country.

[Libby Spencer]

Well said Dennis. How refreshing to see a real conservative who's not afraid to take an independent position from the lockstep party line mob.

[Alan]

This discussion is sorely needed. But one is also needed regarding the hold the religious right has on the GOP and its pundit class. Former Senator Jack Danforth was tagged a liberal by Rush Limbaugh because Danforth doesn't share the same radical pro-life agenda of Rush Limbaugh. Anyway, carry on. :)

[catherine]

I'm trying to figure out what your point is. You claim to know about Islam because you know some Somalis. Yet you know nothing about them. You don't even know what form of Islam they practice.

Yes, they like sweet coffee. Do you know they cut their daughters' clitores off, and sew up the vagina? They perform the most radical form of female genital mutilation known, on ALL their daughters.

They actually had to pass a law against it in Minnesota in 1994. Exactly who is checking on enforcement? How do you enforce such a law?

Somalis have a totally alien culture. They don't intermarry with "foreigners". You are as ignorant as Charles Johnson, and as disagreeable, you just direct your rage at different targets.

Islam is an alien culture. You don't have to hate people for being alien. You shouldn't allow too many of them in your culture, because they'll destroy it.

What if 100 million Muslims immigrated to the US? There are at least that many who would like to. They would vote to institute sharia.

I don't understand why you support the war in Iraq. The only thing it accomplished was to install a Muslim fundamentalist government. Check out the website sistani.org, the website of their supreme leader.

You say that we should understand what led to 9/11, which is about the only thing you have said that I agree with. This is no mystery and I don't know why you are behaving as if it is. They have said repeatedly why they "hate you."

The US has troops in various Muslim countries and supports Israel. They really mean that Israel stuff, it's not rhetoric. In order to satisfy them, you must give in to Hamas' demands. If you don't know what they are then I seriously question whether you know anything about the Islamic world.

[Loony lefty]

As for Salvage's comment: if you want to find them it isn't difficult. Though wanting to find them is a giant step for most.

I find it exceedingly difficult to find more measured, honest and sane commentary in American public discourse these days, but then I'm living in Canada, where political adversaries still talk to each other, and don't wall themselves off behind commentless blogs, FoxNews "balanced" discussion panels and scripted townhalls with cherry-picked audiences.

That is something American conservatives need to address, because it's destroying them.

[DennisThePeasant]

catherine-

You claim to know about Islam because you know some Somalis. Yet you know nothing about them. You don't even know what form of Islam they practice.

Given that you never asked me what form of Islam they practice, that's a bit of a leap. What you asked me [in the comments section of the previous post] is what "version" of the Quran they used. I told you I thought you were playing games because most Muslims believe there is only one version, although scholars often contend there are several.

If what you meant was what form of Islam they adhere to, you should have asked that. For the record, they're Sunni Muslims, and for your information, the distinction one draws between the Sunni and Shia forms of the faith has everything to do with a dispute over who was the true successor to Mohammed and absolutely nothing to do with "versions" of the Quran: Both use the same "version" of the Quran.

That you've managed to get yourself all tangled up in this simply tells me you haven't the slightest idea of what your are talking about.

I am aware that female mutilation has been ongoing problem with Somalis. That is a cultural, rather than a religious, issue which is, in fact, being handled within the Somali community itself. But then, you wouldn't know that, would you? In any event, given how little you appear to know about these subjects, what it seems you are doing is simply selecting what negatives you can find to justify a pre-existing hate, which leaves me a bit baffled as to why you dislike Charles Johnson.

The rest of your post reads like a 5 year old's version of LGF talking points, and as such really aren't worth discussing, although I can now readily understand why you find so much of what you see and read confusing.

[Peter vE]

What if 100 million Muslims immigrated to the US? There are at least that many who would like to. They would vote to institute sharia.

What if 4 million Irish Catholics immigrated to the US? They would enslave us all to the Pope!

What if 2 million Eastern European Jews immigrated to the US? They would enslave us all to the Elders of Zion!

Dennis, that was a fabulous post. Don't blow a gasket with the LGF'ers.

[dawud]

catherine - addressing your misperceptions one by one will take some time, but still irrelevant largely to dennis' personal observations:
i) i wrote a reasonably long response to you before which got lost between post and IP; about the Qur'an, of which one Arabic form is accepted by the vast majority (>95%) of muslims, Sunni and Shi'a, with some Shi'a (mostly of the Ismai'ili sect) believing in another narration. www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/

ii) your one topical point about somalis practicing clitoral infusion, or FGM: ALL knowledgeable people from the region point out that this is cultural [ie, what you describe, as opposed to the comparatively lesser removal of a bit of the outer labia minora] is actually called 'Pharaonic , where practiced, and not from Islam - ie: Tantawi, the chief mufti of al-Azhar, the greatest influence on religious decisions there, has declared all such 'operations' as haram and since improper, religiously invalid. but to argue this would be like me taking the practice of locking little girls away for male sexual gratification, practiced by 'Christian' sects from "Church of the Creator", the Waco sect of David Koresh, or the polygamy of the break-away factions of the Mormon (LDS) church and attributing each of these to some implacably 'alien' element of "Christian" culture. Which would be wrong, and to generalize poorly, or in more mathematical and sociological language, to "normalize the deviance".

iii) to argue that the Qur'an is interpreted as you believe, is a more difficult question, since you don't seem to show much interest in variant readings, but seem to take Charles' [et al, ie: YouTube posted "It's in the Koran") and Co.] assertion that al-Q and Zawahiri and terrorist 'fellow travellers' have the correct interpretation of the Qur'an, that being an Islam that is 'alien' to the US - um, African muslims came here as slaves [of Good Judeo-Christian[tm] Folk like yourselves], tho perhaps before - see http://thirdresurrection.blogspot.com/2006/02/abubakari-ii-great-african-explorer.html - ... and how you call that 'alien'?
I would think indigenous people, otherwise known as 'First Nations', have more right to say that then you...

iv) as to US foreign policy and support for Israel, etc: please read Bob Baer, 'See No Evil' [interviewed by frontline: www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/ shows/tehran/interviews/baer.html ] -, or "Through our Enemy's Eyes" written by 'Anonymous', who's now outed himself after leaving the CIA - both of whom argue that more open discussion of support of Israel, both of whom are comfortable with by ideology but argue that the policies 'on the ground' need to be understood by Americans in terms of what they actually mean...

v) this gets tedious, arguing for reasonable presentation of Islam as a faith, when you're not going to accept me as a 'moderate muslim', but just another "moonbat" or radical 'taqiyah-practising' fundamentalist "moose-limb". Screw it, I'd rather read Dennis' stories about Somalis which he actually knows something about, than argue with someone who professes to dispute matters which I *know*.

my apologies to Dennis for the long post, but perhaps he would allow this response to be extended to allow for this final quotation.

I think Bob Baer knows more about this, as quoted in his interview with Frontline:
www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/ shows/tehran/interviews/baer.html
And how important is Israel in American foreign policy?

It's extremely important. But it's because we look at Israel as a democracy, one. ... And the Holocaust is very important in the American conscience, political conscience. It's a gut reaction. We support Israel for those two reasons, the Holocaust and democracy.

And Americans say, "Why can't the Arabs see this?" The Arabs, on the other hand, are saying, "We're not responsible for the Holocaust. We protected the Jews during the Second World War. They fled there. We didn't bother them. They are the ones that set up a country."

And then the more radicalized [the] Muslims become, the more they look at [Israel] as a colonial appendage of the United States that is meant to oppress them. The terms of their dialogue are being degraded by the day, too. And so [you get] these people that ran the airplanes into the World Trade Center, saying, "The West is hostile to us, and we've got to fight it."

and allow him to finish by echoing what Dennis wrote before: ...
I think it's a mistake in U.S. foreign policy, first of all, to paint Islam as an enemy, because you get dragged into a cultural war which we can't win. You have to isolate the people who really do sponsor mass murder or kidnappings or individual murders of people, that are killing Americans in Kuwait today, that flew the airplanes in. Those are isolated individuals which don't have anything to do with Islam in general.

[WisdomWeasel]

Not completely on topic, but an interesting thing on the history and current definitions of the term "caucasian".

When you consider that Reza Shah Pahlavi formally changed the name of Persia to the even older Iran ("land of the Aryans") at the suggestion of his ambassador to Berlin in the 1930s in order to suggest superiority over his ethnic arab, turkomen, kurd, pashtun, and slav neighbors in line with the now discredited racial idiocy of the time, you can see that attempting to define peoples race and ethnicity is about as comfortable an experience as sticking your weenie in a wasp's nest.

[Sam]

"Please keep one thing in mind when you write your Muslim stories: Muslim countries are as different from each other as European countries are from each other."

Sounds like that's Dennis' intent.

As a fellow conservative I really find it unpleasant that you're getting hate mail from our supposed fellow-travelers just for discussing the self-evident fact that Muslims are not interchangeable units issued from a central factory. I have to believe that these people don't speak for "real" conservatism.

There are a SUBSET of Muslims who are murderous nutballs, and they are well organized. There are other Muslims. I doubt that anybody has a good handle on the relative proportions.

I look forward to your reminiscences about the Somalis you have met.

[catherine]

Dennis,

There are at least a dozen variant versions (or "recitations") of the Quran. It gets pretty complicated, so and I admit that I don't understand all the details. But it doens't have to do with succession of Muhammad.

"I am aware that female mutilation has been ongoing problem with Somalis. That is a cultural, rather than a religious, issue which is, in fact, being handled within the Somali community itself. "

How do you know this?

"But then, you wouldn't know that, would you? "

No, I don't, and I admit it. You are the one who claims to know, but doesn't!

I said that it's very difficult to enforce something like that. So what proof do you have that they are dealing with it.

And how does the US benefit by allowing illiterate people who genitally mutilate their daughters to emigrate here?

"The rest of your post reads like a 5 year old's version of LGF talking points, "

Really? Last I checked, the LGF crowd loved Bush and was rabily pro-Iraq war (as you are). I once tried to ask a question there about what good the war in Iraq did for the US and got jumped on. I asked you and you evaded the question. So I'll ask it again: What good is a war that is just going to install a Muslim fundamentalist dictatorship?

The rest of my post asked a pointed question about Israel, which you also evaded.

I stated that there is no mystery whatever about why the Muslim world is so sore at the US. Because the US gives Israel $5BN per year (or maybe $3BN, whatever...) and supports it, no matter what.

Do you think that the US should deal with the roots of Muslim rage by changing its Israel policy? Or should the US work with Hamas and dump Israel?

[DennisThePeasant]

catherine-

I'm not evading anything, I'm choosing to keep my discussion rather focused. As such I'm not particularly interested in responding to every factoid or opinion you bring to the party. Given that you seem to have a certain amount of difficulty keeping what I've said to this point unjumbled, doing so seems to be nothing more than good sense.

[John Ferguson]

Careful, Mr. Peasant, lest ye have the Mark of Liberal stitched into your Spongebob PJs.

[DennisThePeasant]

catherine-

Please understand that I'm not running an argument clinic here. As such, I have only limited patience with those who seeking an argument and nothing more.

[catherine]

Dennis,

In the middle of empty threats of knocking people on their asses, you ask:

"But what is necessary is to understand what part our pre-September 11 attitudes contributed to that particular disaster."

I asked two focused questions pointed directly at that issue.

You chose to insult (and evade) charging me with being on the same side as LGF, etc.

I pointed out that I don't agree with them at all and posed again the two questions that I originally asked. You continue to claim that it is somehow a mystery "why they hate us..." and as I said, it's no mystery at all. They have told us time and again what the problem is. And you won't face it.

What a sad little coward you are. You can't even answer two focused questions, and all you do is say nasty stuff about other bloggers. What a waste of time.

You want dittoheads, you got 'em.

[DennisThePeasant]

catherine-

I'm not really interested in why you're here or why you're trying to highjack this thread. As I've explained myself to the best of my limited abilities, I'm going to give you the opportunity to take your business elsewhere. There are too many other commenters who are worth listening to for us to take this any further.

[David N. Scott]

Hmm. I missed a lot with my dead internet. Yea, this should be interesting...

[neil]

Does anyone want to argue that a collective lack of knowledge of, and a persistent misunderstanding of, of the religion, culture, politics and history of the Middle East didn’t play a huge part in facilitating the success of al-Qaeda on September 11?

And you call yourself a _former_ liberal?

[dawud]

let's see what 'cards' al-Q played to carry out:

culture:
i) exploiting a visa program for students from Jeddah that was corrupt (assuming al-Q and other groups are too stupid to know holes in American Security);

ii) playing on the image of corrupt Arabs [those supposedly incapable of doing anything but finding prostitutes] (drinking, nightclubs, striptease dancers - all according to the FBI report) to build up profiles ['ignorant Arabs are going to spend themselves out of that oil']...

history:
iii) exacerbating and focusing the anger of frustrated Saudi and Egyptian youth who really believed as Bob Baer (ex-CIA officer, served in Lebanon and Saudi, amongst other places): "The West is hostile to us, and we've got to fight it."

iv) actually had a Saudi student tell me once "15 Saudis & 4 Egyptians flew those planes into the WTC, the FBI report was largely accurate. Take any of the kids around here, don't give them a job, have them watching 8 hours of satellite tv a day, seeing the violence in Lebanon, Iraq, and Palestine [Afghanistan, Somalia, etc - but he emphasized arab hotspots, natural for an arab] - and then have them go to a mosque where the imam tells them to die for their faith? more kids will follow in their path." pretty much echoed by Bob Baer's "We need Saudi Arabia to go back to its schools and reform them and stop preaching jihad. We need Saudi Arabia to join the 21st century, give jobs to these people equally, and cut back on the corruption ... start giving these people in the south, Asir province, where the suicide bombers came from, a stake in life. But we can't do it with bombs." I kind of think he makes sense, but that's enough of me.

Do you mind explaining why we shouldn't ask 'why' about 9/11, and why that makes Dennis a 'liberal' [you could add 'traitor' if you wanted to finish that off Coulter-style]?

[David Heidelberg]

Dennis,

Our politics are poles apart, but I appreciate your candid commentary.

In your previous post you mention the fact that many lefties probably don't know any Muslims either, and use them as pawns in the same way chuckie does. This statement put me back on my heels for a moment, however makes perfect sense.

I think it is the extremists on each side of the left/right divide that repel the opposite. An acceptance that each side is prone to extreme hyperbole goes a long way.

[sonic]

Nice post Dennis, at the end of the day it's right wingers like oyurself who will take down the racists on your side, like we have to deal with the minority of anti-semites who use the Palestine issue on our side.

On the left and Muslims, actually many on the left (in Europe at least) have been working with muslim organisations since the anti-war movement began. For that LFG et al accuse of "siding with the enemy" etc, however it has certainly been am eye opening experience for me.

[The Atheist Jew]

These fanatics are just waiting for excuses to burn stuff. If it wasn't the cartoons, it would be something else.
The Arab world needs to be reformed before they get a nuke. Once they get one, they will use it.
There is no justification for those who went on a destructive rampage after the cartoons were published. None. This is a culture clash. If you can't handle the West, get out of the West. In the West, we can make jokes. We don't need to walk on eggshells.
Japan learned a lesson. The Arab world will need to learn the same lesson it appears. The only thing that scares me is that the Japanese are sane.

[DennisThePeasant]

This is a culture clash.

Wrong. The cartoon affair was a pretext for a pre-planned political action in furtherance of the political agenda of several (at least) totalitarian Middle Eastern governments and their collaborators.

[Teutonic Tribe Medicine Man]

Dear Fellow Mercer School Graduate:

Ann Coulter? Well, anyone who gets Ted Rall pissed off CAN'T be all bad. In a fair fight, she'd cut Ted's heart out and stomp on it. As for "moderate" Muslims, they've shown themselves to be worth as much as "moderate" Republicans: you can use their balls for teabags. There are "non-moderate" Muslims, like a lot of those folks in Iraq and Afghanistan, who have tons of guts, who want to build modern nations, and who want to join the West. They have purple fingers and proved the world's Leftists wrong when they faced down terror thugs and voted. Notice that there have been zip riots in those two nations over the cartoons? THOSE are the Muslims I support. Finally, I always love it when we hear about all of those great contributions made by Islam to the world's science and art. They were good transmitters, but they originated zip, zero, nada. Algebra and "Arabic" numerals? Sorry, but they were inventions of the Hindus in India (yet another nation invaded by Islam). "The Arabian Nights" stories? Sorry, but they were Persian in origin (still ANOTHER nation invaded by Islam). Interior design? They took beautiful St. Sophia's Cathedral in CONSTANTINOPLE, trashed the place, and turned it into what looks like a Tile Outlet retail store. Question: can you name ONE nation where Islam has PEACEFULLY become the majority religion? Answer: you can't as they have always done it with violence. Question: can you name one nation where Christianity became the majority religion peacefully? Sure, including the civilization of those nasty Vikings in Sweden and Norway, the entire Roman Empire, and even the city of Dallas. Can you name a nation where Judaism peacefully became the majority religion? Even if you don't agree it's Israel, you can sure make a case for New York City and Shaker Heights, Ohio. I agree with Coulter about one thing: I don't want to grant ANY quarter to or speak nicely about guys who fly airplanes into buildings to kill innocents. Maybe the Somalis Dennis works with feel the same way. If so, welcome to the party, pals.

Teutonic Tribe Medicine Man
Trail Of Beers, Oklahoma

[Luther McLeod]

Well my idiocy precedes me. Posted this on the last thread, mistakenly.

DtP

I love ya man. But...I don't know what to think. Not about what you will be writing about here, but about the survival of Western Civ. Yes, I know, trite and narrow minded simpleton am I. Can I state it simply, I want islam to have no influence on this country. None. I just don't like it. Can I state that simple thought without massive approbation? Not likely.

Anything islam may offer, as a religion, we can cover in spades, with any one of a number of weird and ridiculous ideas (think scientology and others) that we accept as religion in this country. Do we need more, I think not. And yet, freedom of religion is a cornerstone of this country. Nonbeliever myself, but would (and have) fought for that very thing.

I am more than likely wrong, but I suspect that a part of your motivation for this venture is your interest in seeing that muslims in this country are not (simply put) mistreated or maligned, just for the fact that they are muslim. I respect that, and agree with it.

But, please, in your writings, find a way to assuage my fears, tell me how I can accept islam as a force in this country, without fear of seeing Western Civilization disappear.

Crack in the wall and all that.

[Lou Minatti]

Dennis, I agree with you. It's bothered me for some time now, and lately the "Moslems suck ass and must die!" comments have reached a fever pitch. I've worked with many Moslems (IT) and I find the comments disturbing. Granted, I haven't attended their mosques, so I don't know if they have secret meetings to discuss the downfall of America, but it seems to me that the Moslems in the US came here to GET AWAY from that crazy shit back home.

Look at LGF today. Out of 16 posted topics, 15 are about crazy Moslems who suck. Seriously. 15 posts out of 16. You know how KOS has turned into an echo chamber populated by rabid kooks who only know that Bush is evil incarnate and obsess over his every breath? LGF is turning into the same echo chamber.

[richard mcenroe]

Loony Lefty — Please. You think we didn't follow your last couple of elections down here?

[GaijinBiker]

Lou, criticizing LGF for having too many posts about Muslim atrocities is like criticizing ESPN for having too much sports coverage. That's what it's all about. You want something else, read something else.

[WisdomWeasel]

Notice that there have been zip riots in those two nations over the cartoons?

Umm, Tribe Man,
Four Die in Afghan Cartoon Riot

Iraqi Cartoon Protests Spur Wider Debate

[Fits]

So yet again it boils down to being our fault for not understanding them enough. We can agree to disagree but some of us do understand quite well, thank you, Dennis. Is it difficult for me to turn the other cheek after spending a lot of time in Mesopotamia and having had friends and relatives working in the WTC? Bet your ass it is. I hate my eneny with all my heart and soul. Not that people shouldn't talk. Talk is good. But talk never helped end a war until after one side surrendered. Ever. Some give good talk and even better surrender. Some stay on the wall until relieved.

Stimulating stuff, thanks for bringing it up.

[Teutonic Tribe Medicine Man]

Four die in Afghan riots? Sounds like a quiet day in Detroit.

[Bob]

A spectacular post.

America will win the War on Terror because it is America, on the side of truth and light. Honesty from liberals and conservatives-- and willingness to keep the extreme versions of each side in their cages-- will help keep us on the side of the angels.

[Al of Alnot]

I see both sides of the issue and I still have a problem with Islam. They have been a violent problem throughout history. I do not care if there is a billion of them. I do not want to kill all of them. I just want to kill enough of those who will attack us and Islam as a religion opens itself up to ridicule. I would like to see Islam wiped off of the face of the planet but realize that it is not our job to do so. I see what you are saying Dennis and just like God I do not celebrate when 'the wicked' are destroyed or in most cases destroy themselves.

[Jane]

I think I speak for a lot of Americans when I say that everything I will ever need to know about Islam, I learned on 9/11.